fixed 78901234567 
See the picture below, Why is there all this bracing and complexity?
One member across the entire back with 4 screw tie points is demonstrably more stable.
The shown bracing is fighting side ways racking. You are tying the outer edges and leaving the center unsupported to sag / flex. Keep it simple. How far apart are the two center āstudsā in the center ? I set mine at 46 inches so a 48 inch x 48 inch sheet would easily mount if I wanted to work on a half sheet. Build this like a wall plate, mirror the inside studs to the outside, use 4 instead of 2 and loose the cleats. Then use one timber across the entire span it wonāt rack or sag. There is a reason walls are built this way in construction. You can then simplify the ends. Using 2 pieces of stick lumber in an A frame. For your purposes 1/2 bolts at the top as a hinge. The cross member can be rope or nylon strap, youāre just limiting itās travel. This makes the angel quick and easy to adjust.
A top beam joins the A frame legs, the Center Frame Unit screws in from the sides. The top beam is 2 10ft 2x4s. The top inside beam takes 4 bolts aligned with the spacing of the āstudsā . The 2 center bolts are on the inside. They adjust out to push the outside top beam forward to where you want it, these are stops and their excess will protrude towards the back. The outside 2 bolts pull the outside beam into the inside top beam tying it all together.
As is, itās over built in some ways and overly complex. I feel like weāre are putting a kevlar race helmet on a turtle. Perhaps one of those 1920ās leather football helmets is enough.
This my opinion
Thank you
the small blocks are there so that weāre not trying to fasten into the end grain of the wood. Itās also much easier for people to mount the blocks consistently using spacers to position them, then attach the crossmembers to the top of the blocks than it is to position the crossmembers correctly as they are being fastened
the reason for the small diagonals instead of one large diagonal is the the large one would require an extra stick, while the small ones can be squeezed out of the exiting cut list
the reason I only brace on the outer corners is that there isnāt yet agreement from bar to have two crossmembers, let alone the vertical bars between them. (remove the long diagonals, the verticals, and the crossmember closest to the middle and thatās what Bar is thinking we should have )
the two center bars are 23 inches apart, because at the time that they are to be added, I have either 16" or 28" bars left to use as spacer from the outer edges (which are 82" apart) I could shorten the long diagonals to pull the two center bars apart a bit more, but before worrying about that, I want to get agreement that we should at least have to crossmembers
the pieces of lumber that hold the legs in position also provide the only support to start with for anything you are working on.
I started off with a folding design, and have raised the possibility again numerous times, but others really want the fixed design. I have a crowded garage and will have to take the machine out and use it on the driveway, but there seems to be a feeling that making it foldable makes it too complex (and if it folds, you really want both legs to move together, so you need a crossmember between them, and thatās another stick of lumber)
the center frame would need to be a lot taller to support both the bottom of the workpiece and the top beam
what do you mean by āBuild this like a wall plate, mirror the inside studs to the outside, use 4 instead of 2 and loose the cleatsā? walls have weight on them and a surface permanently attached on each side (in modern houses, glued, as well as screwed) , so they can get away with weak connections to the sill and top plates, for these machines, the joints need to stand on their own.
also, itās not obvious without looking at the pictures a fair bit, but the short diagonals are closer to the ground than the longer ones
This is what Bar is saying the frame should be (not counting the top beam)
Iāve stopped for the time being until we come up with a final, final design because the workflow is long and tedious. Iām still trying to figure out better ways of doing it.
As for coloring/shading, I will try to come up with something that can be printed and show that a piece is ātoolsāā¦ maybe dashed lines if I can do that and it will print well enough. Will have to see. I did add letters to the pieces so that those that want to print in B&W donāt have to worry about colorā¦ also, my first boss was red-green blind so for the last 25 years Iāve never depended upon color as the only source of information.
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With all the work thatās been put into this to create an optimized design, to make the beam horizontal at this point doesnāt make much sense to me.
If toenailing a screw in is too complicated, you could put a clamp on it until the glue dries or if you really didnāt want to wait, just use a really inexpensive mending plate.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Everbilt-2-in-Zinc-Plated-Mending-Plate-4-Pack-15299/202033910
A quick reply before a longer one with some research. @dlang You bring up some interesting points. I will say I have fence in my yard reaching the century mark. It is redwood and only contains nails.
I saw this last night but I was on hour 21 out of 24 and knew if I started a reply Iād be at it til hour 23. I was on the clock getting disciplesofcnc.com up and decided Iāwait until this morning when I could better address this.
FYI - I have been up and working today since 5:30. I appreciate the effort you and everyone here are putting forth. I think we are mixing too many design goals in one package. There are too many chiefs in the kitchen.
The small blocks I refer to as cleats. How are they attached?
2 screws should not so impact a board for mounting unless the board wasnāt sound to begin with.
Let me run off and find some visuals to what I was saying last night. I try to write things in a way I hope things convey without graphics because Iām not good at creating graphics.
Thank you
First, in heirloom quality furniture, the screws are only there to act as clamps until the glue dries. Modern glues are stronger than the wood parts theyāre joining. Since it takes a while to build whatever the final frame design is, just make the glue/screw step #1 and set it aside to dry while youāre spending the several hours building the rest of the frame. At room temp, you can start using glued parts in about 4-5 hours. Of course drying overnight isnāt the worst idea.
Also, since weāre talking about short blocks of soft woods, gluing at right angles reduces issues with splitting and of course always pre-drill any holes.
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very possibly. It would be easier to just have one person dictate the design, but I think that the current design is much better than any of the early ones (even my early wheeled alternate 2 needs to be updated with some of the touches, and INSHO, that will still be the best design when updated, but itās designed for a slightly different set of goals.
screws to the leg (from either side, but the diagram @madgrizzle did shows the screws from the block to the leg)
then two screws through the end of the crossmember into the cleats
Iām missing something here.
[quote=āBee, post:828, topic:2025, full:trueā]
Let me run off and find some visuals to what I was saying last night. I try to write things in a way I hope things convey without graphics because Iām not good at creating graphics.
[/quote] Iāll let you know when Iām headed home (by train tonight) and see what I can understand and if I can create the graphics to match.
if you stop after each joint, you canāt make much progress. But I think you can do each side piece (steps 1-5) in one short, then let the glue dry before moving on to joining the major pieces.
Iām torn between doing the right angle top beam supports while the legs are separate (easier to do) vs doing them later so that itās easier to do all the center components while the frame is face down.
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If the Cleats are getting screwed in how would this be different between a 46 inch piece or a 3 inch into the side beam? same hole, same screw.
Iām attaching my child like drawing of the simplified version (i have just insulted the child drawing community )
I will follow up with more in a bit
Thank you
@Bee, the difference is that your top and bottom horizontal top members are being screwed into the end-grain of your ācleatā whereas in the current design, the cleat is rotated such that the end-grain isnāt being screwed into (though this may not be explicitly stated as such in the instructionsā¦ yet). The top/bottom horizontals screw into a side whereas the attachment to the leg is through the face. The end-grain of the cleat is facing to the front/back of the maslow.
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OK - Iām going to try my best on this
post 682 step 6 is the best example of showing the lateral stacking of joints. This is unstable to lateral racking, you are creating an A frame out of 3 offset fulcrums to each other. Just use 2 timbers to make a simple A frame with a 1/2 bolt at the top. Make the 3rd member of the a frame optionally hard or soft material. By constructing the center as one unit and affixing the A frame legs you reduce steps, complexity add strength and cut cost.
Thank you
editā¦ thinkingā¦
Iāll put my 46 inches of grain up against your 3 inches of directional grain any day.
Have you read the -
āWhat is the frame doingā post?
Edit - I get the intention but this is going to depend on the cut of wood and that is way beyond getting into. It suggests if you rotate the grain that is not uniform the wrong direction you will have a failure. Beyond not true. Possible but not likely.
Thank you
More reference for the viewing audience -
https://www.wagnermeters.com/end-edge-and-face-grain/
Thank you
Iām not a carpenter by any stretch of the imagination so others can debate the merits of end-grains vs edge/face screwingā¦ Iām a complete amateur. I responded to the question because you asked what the difference was and Iām confident that the cleats were there to avoid screwing into end-grain.
Iāve read the āWhat is the frameā doing post. What specifically are you suggesting be changed? Is it to build a āwallā portion and then attach legs to it?
Take 3 -
This is a double fulcrum, the lower fulcrum is a cantilever to the end force almost guaranteeing flex because of intensified force.
I do love that @bar just puts things together to prove things work or not.
the fix to help alleviate this is to fix the middle of the beam to the work piece to limit flex.
Thank you
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But one goal was to extend the top beam outward (beyond the plane of the work piece) to keep the chain parallel to the center of gravity of the sled in order to cut down on chain skipping.
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Is there a consolidated PDF of this new frame? Compiling cut list, directions, and diagrams. Were looking to get our frame started before the kit arrives.
Iām not an Expert as in I build for a living yet. The Malsow has deviated what I do. At the moment Iām becoming a magazine publisher / wood worker. I am working in a room I framed under a roof I installed. I have been working on things and built with my dad growing up. I have a very practical building skill set. I have impractical taste but that doesnāt go into wood working with the exception of once working with Burl veneer at a ridiculous price per square foot.
I found it took me a while to wrap my head around the original design at first. I think most anyone could follow it. I think a 5th grader could as well. I like the original folding rolling design from @dlang. I find the direction we have gone to be very confusing to read through and follow and itās because we are mixing so much together.
Are we building furniture or function?
For instance gluing a joint is going to be stiffer, the wood in the joint will become un-reusable for anything more than fire wood. In breaking the joint free you will tear the wood in the joint, the glue will be stronger.
I have had a multi year career writing instructions. David asked me to look this over. I had avoided diving before because I knew there would be a lot to sift and lot to respond to.
Iāll put it this way - I have a friend who is dad is a finish carpenter. If you gave him a drawing he would be able to get it done on his terms. If you asked him to follow through this he would simply tell you āWhen you have a drawing come back.ā
Yes Iām saying making the center section like a wall. It has a long history predating screws. Itās easy and many people have help frame at some point in there life.
If I gave this to my nephew who is in his 30ās and a school principle I think he wold be lost.
Our first design has to be friendly to the beginner and set them up for success.
As Iāve stated many times here and now several threads build simple and to the majority of needs for the beginner. Break up the advanced stuff under an advanced design.
I plan to release a manual of sorts, a walk through on the 80/60 build in a few days that will illustrate what I feel instructions need to be like.
I appreciate you and everything you post, your work is top notch. I want it to be that way for all our new users.
Thank you