So maybe instead of focusing on legality as the cutoff for what’s appropriate we use empathy.
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@morgan I see (and agree) with your point about high schooler’s. “no politics” cop out? You are missing my point (or maybe making it), There are all sorts of folks on this forum from all over the world with probably every opinion possible, and all levels of taste. If some of us start down the rabbit hole of political opinion, others who don’t agree will be incensed, and the CNC discourse that everyone wants will be compromised. If there is a fire starting here, let’s be sure it does not burn down the whole forum… That is why my last sentence was
“When that happens, it would be reasonable to discontinue the discussion in the interest of the whole community.”
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When I saw the post, I knew it would start a discussion. I appreciate that people have differing opinions and some things are offensive to some while not offensive to others. Personally, @bar, I know you do not want to be in the position of making the decision, I get it, but I can guarantee that there will be no consensus from the group. There are too many polarizing issues and, in my opinion, you will have to make that decision. I will say, once a rule is set, someone will have to enforce it and guidelines need to be establish on what qualifies and doesn’t qualify, etc. I think it’s reasonable, at least to post a terms of use and explain what the goal of this forum is and what decorum is expected. This has been the most pleasant forum I’ve ever been part of and it was all about helping people, being polite, not cussing, respecting other people’s views… and that doesn’t really appear to have ever been posted… I just seemed like people did that. Some how, I’d like to get back to that.
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@bar or someone with Admin rights to the forum will you please remove my AR 15 Speed Loader post. There is no reason it needs to be on the forum. You can buy a speed loader off Etsy for $30 or watch youtube on how to make one your self.
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I definitely agree with @madgrizzle that this is a really great forum and community. One of things that I really enjoy in particular is the inclusion and participation of schools and young people. From what I have seen, supporting education has been a major goal of Maslow from the start, and I can see how inclusion of topics like guns might restrict students’ ability to access and use this forum.
With an eye towards a resolution, we could think of this as an issue of access instead of values. If we want this forum to remain as open as possible to as many people as possible - in particular students - maybe that means no gun stuff.
That certainly doesn’t mean that people can’t pursue those interests with Maslow. Maslow is open source and the internet is a big place. You can do it, but maybe not here.
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as far as I’m concerned, yes (and the same goes for something that carves
pictures)
worst case is that we may want to create a kids section and an ‘adult topics’
section and put some trivial "are you old enough’ checkbox.
If we do create an adult topic section, I have no problem with putting anything
that has age restrictions there
far more people are killed with cars or knives than rifles, let alone the AR-15
family of rifles.
note: I’m trying not to get into the gun control debate, but if you are going to
start taking the attitude that the AR-15 is somehow inherently evil, I’m going
to argue back
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I have to agree with @creigpat. I don’t think the Maslow forum is the place for this. It is best to keep it PG so that everyone can be involved. I just thought it was cool that I could take a hunk of wood and a Maslow and create a functional tool that saves me time at one of my interests. There are plenty of other sites people can go to if they want to find this information. The Maslow forum doesn’t have to be one.
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@morgan, I didn’t appreciate your language earlier, especially if you work around kids. You want these forums to be pure for everybody but yourself. Up until that point nobody was getting hostile or swearing back and forth. They were all simply making their points to try and justify there side of the debate. I was trying to be open minded about your opinion, and am still open minded. You don’t like guns or anything about them but to what extent do you want us to limit weapons. I see more violence in the movies and video games than I see in the crafting of wood, but that doesn’t stop your students from playing those games or watching TV.
I personally do not think their is anything wrong with the AR-15 speed loader, but if you want to force your opinion against it, fine. I however do not wish to see any more profanity on this public forum especially since children might see it.
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AR-15’s, for example, are legal in much of the US, but illegal in many other
countries. So is this project “legal” or not?
This project is not a gun, you could take this wood anywhere in the world and it
would not be illegal.
Or what if somebody wanted to post a bong holder. Is that okay because
recreational marijuana is legal in Colorado, or not okay because it’s illegal
in most other states/countries?
bong holders are legal anywhere in the world, it’s marijuana that’s not.
David Lang
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Thank you for that. It’s members like you that make community great. Much respect to you.
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very much NO
that is the heckler’s veto writ large. “I was tramatized as a child by a Clown,
take down that clown image”
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I am going to remove the thread in a few minutes, just because the OP asked for a moderator to take it down. I still don’t feel good about trying to be the moral compass for the community, I think that’s something we have to do together and we need to keep in mind that we are diverse community around the world and what is upsetting in one place is not at all controversial somewhere else.
I think my take so far is:
-
No set in stone rules…we’ll end up arguing about technicalities all day. Nothing is banned except things which are illegal (duh)
-
Let’s keep it classroom appropriate…That seems like a good rule of thumb. If it would be controversial for a teacher to show it on the screen at the front of a class room that’s a bad sign
-
Presentation matters…I think it’s important to keep in mind that there are a lot of folks out there with different sensibilities, but that we’re mostly interested in keeping to ourselves if given the chance. I think if this project were to make a few changes to the way it is presenting itself it could exist in the forums happily. First having AR15 in the post title is troubling because EVERYONE has to read the post title, and no matter what your opinion on gun issues is the word AR15 is controversial right now. Second, the post doesn’t really explain what a speed loader is. For those of us who don’t have a lot of experience with guns we just see a gif of some bullets and it seems like something violent. There is a discussion in that thread about designing a box to take to a shooting range which could hold all your tools, and your lunch…etc and also incorporate this type of thing into the lid and somehow that feels different to me because it tells a cohesive story about going to the shooting range. Presentation can make a big difference in how people feel about something.
-
In my mind the forums and the community garden are different. Projects posted in the community garden are presented to the world as something made by the entire community, there isn’t a clear author’s name attached. Projects posted in the forums are clearly posted by one person and I think that makes a difference. The community garden reflects on us collectively.
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I disagree, This is a simple thing, yet something that some people will find
useful. The discussion of how to make it, how to combine it with other things,
is just exactly the type of discussion that we should be having.
the discussion “it’s made to be used with something that’s used with a GUN, and
not just any gun but an EVIL AR-15!!!” is the one we don’t need. But we do need
to have the discussion about why we don’t want such discussions.
The same thing should go if someone posted files to make a Planned Parenthood
sign or item. You can have discussions of the technical details without freaking
out over what someone else is building.
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I agree and feel that’s an important distinction.
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we are diverse, and should celebrate being diverse, not limited by the fears of
any one subset (that leads to only having what is approved by everybody, and
that rapidly approaches the null set)
David Lang
P.S. deleting this doesn’t eliminate it from archives, including e-mail archives
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I agree with everything you said here, but I want to understand what this would look like in practice. Would what you said be more guidelines with respect to the forum, but rules for the community garden?
For example, would the forum topic be allowed to stay up (if the OP had not asked for it to be removed), but the project wouldn’t be allowed in the community garden?
I’m think @bar will be deleting the speed loader thread by the request of the OP, not this thread.
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See, this is where I am with this. I don’t even own a gun, and I can see the appeal in that. The project is about a making something that is a utility, the fact that it can be used as an accessory to gun is secondary. The presentation did bother me a little, as the sickle magazine has certain connotations. But how else would you present it? I will be a little sad to see the post get deleted.
Ultimately, I really have to agree with this point, however. This forum is regularly used by school-aged children, and we need to remember that.
I also love that we as a community can sit down and have a mature discussion about this. This is really what makes this forum an amazing place.
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it is also in the Internet archives and various e-mail archives.
not mine because I trusted that things posted here would not be removed, I’ll
have to re-think that policy in the future.