I agree the speed loader is a neat project, i like the mechanics of it, and it does not really need to be removed. But i do believe there should be a line. What if someone designed a maslowable bump stock? As i understand it turns your semi automatic weapon to full auto with zero accuracy, correct me if i’m wrong? Maybe “if it attaches to a gun” is a rule that can be enforced?
2 Likes
Well said @bar.
Perhaps I am a bit late to chime in, as this has largely been resolved. I have to admit that I was a bit conflicted when I saw the project, and I have been thinking about it since last evening. I hate the idea of censorship, I see the coolness and utility in the project, I own firearms and completely respect the rights of other responsible gun owners, but I detest gun violence. I’m not here to preach or debate that.
I fully support the idea of classroom-appropriate projects for the Maslow Community Garden. It’s a “Community Garden”, not the “Corner Pub”. There are plenty of other places on the Internet for projects that aren’t quite appropriate to be shared there.
When I want a zucchini or some tomatoes, I go to the community garden; when I want a drink, I hang out at the corner pub. Both are valid choices, and I am glad they’re available to me. I’m of age, I understand society’s rules I must abide by and the consequences if I don’t, and so long as I abide by the rules, there aren’t any problems.
Perhaps community flagging and voting, or a form of community-based moderation could be implemented for Garden projects? Another alternative would be a “Corner Pub” subforum where projects that might be “offensive” to some could be discussed and shared? One would have to “opt-in” to the content and must agree that they might see projects that are not quite safe for a 5th grader.
Certainly, there is no way to control what one creates with their Maslow, just as there is no way to control what one creates with a 3D printer or any other tool. I don’t want to see that level of control ever, I wouldn’t own a tool that placed limits like that on me. We’re all makers here. We may not fully agree on each other’s projects, but so long as no laws are broken and no one is harmed by what is made and what projects are shared, is there a cause for genuine concern other than impropriety and image?
I completely understand the need to maintain an image and avoid impropriety, and hope that I’ve suggested alternative approaches that could be implemented.
1 Like
I agree the speed loader is a neat project, i like the mechanics of it, and it
does not really need to be removed. But i do believe there should be a line.
What if someone designed a maslowable bump stock? As i understand it turns
your semi automatic weapon to full auto with zero accuracy, correct me if i’m
wrong? Maybe “if it attaches to a gun” is a rule that can be enforced?
A bump stock is a way to hold a gun loosely, so that when it recoils, it moves
back enough that when it bounces forward, your finger (which has not moved)
triggers the gun as the gun moves against it.
As the gun is loose, accuracy goes out the window.
Friends who I trust on such things tell me that they can achieve the same result
by just holding the gun loosely, and use their belt to pull the trigger.
But if I wanted an accurate way of doing the same thing, a few minutes with a
motor and a cam would be far more effective. This is clearly illegal, because
the definition of a fully automatic gun (i.e. machine gun) is one that keeps
fireing without you moving.
There are trigger sets out there that fire a round when you pull the trigger,
and then fire a second round when you release the trigger. These are perfectly
legal because each round fired requires a specific action.
As for “if it attaches to a gun”
a program that carves out a stock from a solid piece of would could be used to
carve the stock of a rifle, a crossbow, a rubber-band gun, or a stage prop.
In some cases, you have to wait until someone attaches parts to know which it
is.
A Civil War era Gatling Gun is not considered a machine gun by today’s laws,
because it only fires as you keep turning the crank. Attach a motor to that
crank and it is now a machine gun.
Does that make an electric motor (or a mount to hold it and attach it to a
shaft) a ‘gun accessory’ to be banned?
On an AR-15, the stock, barrel, etc are parts, not a gun. The lower receiver
(the part below the barrel) that holds the trigger is the part that is legally
considered a gun and has a serial number, and even here, it only has a serial
number if it’s manufactured by a gun manufacturer, it’s perfectly legal to make
one yourself with no serial number, and even sell it (just don’t do “too many”
or you will be treated as a manufacturer). And you aren’t required to start
with a solid block of aluminum, as long as the part is not >80% complete, it’s
still legally just a hunk of metal
The AK-47 has a similar part that is ‘the gun’ and all the rest (barrel, stock,
etc) is considered parts that are expected to wear out and be replaced.
FYI, while I obviously have a significant amount of passion on the topic, I have
never owned a firearm. But I find them facinating as mechanical devices, and I
have what I think is a good understanding of the history of the 2nd Ammendment
in the US, and the results of gun bans elsewhere in the world.
Illegal is illegal, I’m not advocating for anyone to break the law where they
are (although, there are cases where I would do so, specific laws in specific
cases). But I also think it’s silly for an organization in the US to try and
claim to comply with every law in every country.
I don’t believe it’s possible, because you will run into a case where country A
mandates something and country B forbids it.
Maslow is US based, and needs to comply with US laws. People outside the US are
welcome, but they need to validate that they are complying with the law where
they are
I’ll get down off my soapbox for a while 
4 Likes
I’m late for the party.
Since the 7th of March when the first speed loader picture ‘Infidel’ was posted, it has been bothering me. (a poor research of the meaning by the marketing department)
Thank you @bar for starting this post. I was waiting for it.
For more then 1 year this community magicly survived without rules.
I think because natural ethical boundarys were not crossed.
As much as I am against censorship, I am happy that this is deleted.
I try to be tolerant and leave everyone his freedom with whatever makes him happy.
But everything has it’s place.
If I am a Sado freak I will post my torture furniture built with Maslow in the appropriate forums and not here.
There is wonderful kids furniture all over the forum and Maslows are donated to schools.
Not even 2 months after 14 students and 3 staff members are killed with a AR-15 a device is presented that enables the next shooter to kill 3 - 5 times more?
I would have voted for deleting without a second thought.
This community is strong enough to continue without rules.
We can vote on case to case basis and let the majority decide.
2 Likes
Funny that. Pot is legal here in Canada starting in July or August (I’ll have to check), yet 30 round magazines are not. I don’t shoot or own any firearms, but I know people who do. I have done a significant amount of reading about my country’s gun laws and statistics, which has changed some of my opinions regarding firearms ownership. And blah blah blah
I’m not surprised about the mag loader being controversial, however it’s a time saving tool and there’s value in that. The person who made it is learning a new skill and now has a piece of equipment they made which has saved them time and money. That being said, I understand and fully support the need for those who run the forum to have a say about what is on here and how it is presented.
2 Likes
Sir, with respect you are incorrect about the bump stock turning a semi-auto into a full-auto. The bump stock has only become the target of attention from that scumbag murderer in Las Vegas (we don’t say his name), and serious “shooters” (term used positively on purpose) do not bother with them. A bump stock does limit accuracy because it becomes harder to aim and control the firearm.
I personally think they are stupid, and wouldn’t care if they are not allowed on these forums. However, a magazine loader has utility to me in my lawful pursuit of proficiency with firearms, and I would be disappointed to see a vocal few who are afraid of guns (apparently more than opiates, automobiles, swimming pools and blunt objects or knives) silence a seemingly decent size chunk of the Maslow community over that fear.
I understand the idea, but who determines what “might be offensive”? The root of the problem is what’s offensive to some is not offensive to others. I think we ask people to self-censor. If you think it might cause a roar, then we ask you not to post it. Anyone that can build a Maslow and do what it takes to cut something is intelligent enough to follow the ask.
2 Likes
Gero friend,
I respectfully disagree with your measure of “natural ethical boundaries”. I think that is a dangerous border to create in which one person’s or a vocal group set the ethics for others who do not agree. And I do not agree.
You state “I try to be tolerant and leave everyone his freedom with whatever makes him happy”, but then conflict with that when you object to this item.
I would never tell you that legal BDSM activities with other willing adults is not OK because I don’t like it… I embrace our differences and where you may teach me something I didn’t know about Sado torture furniture, I may teach you something you didn’t know about firearms.
This device does NOT NOT NOT enable anyone to shoot faster or kill anyone faster or do anything to the firearm. This is a bench/home accessory where I would use it to quickly and efficiently load my magazines before heading to the range. If someone wanted to use this for a nefarious purpose, it would be more effective to hit someone with than it would to stop and use to “increase the killing”. Also, if a murderer was using this to somehow try and murder more people, that would show a lack of preparation that could open a window for potential victims to fight back.
I say these things as someone who trained and studied violence for most of my adult life, with a strong focus on schools and mass gathering sites in the past 8 years.
Whether we need a classroom section or somewhere more appropriate for “non children” type things is another discussion and one I would welcome. I wasn’t aware teachers were having students surf the Maslow Forums as much as it seems.
Let us also keep in mind there are many many schools where the kids, instead of being horrified and triggered and scared by this item, would say “Cool! Now I get to spend more time with my dad learning how to shoot safely and responsibly and less time tearing my thumbs up loading magazines!”
1 Like
Madgrizzle makes a good point as well:
Who determines offensive?
For context, and this is going to sound very juvenile (I’m 31 years old and married), my Maslow co-owners and I were having a few beers and assembling our machine… One of the first things we tried to engrave was the outline of a penis. Why? Because it made us laugh. Something about seeing the router slowwwly bringing the phallus to life was hilarious.
It spawned talk of “we should cut a 3’x7’ penis and put it in the boss’s office at work!” As a practical joke… Because how would he possibly remove it without attracting attention? (We work in a place where this would get a laugh and not an HR complaint or having the secretary faint).
While I likely wouldn’t have posted the penis, I would laugh if someone else did. Some might find it offensive! I would celebrate our different body parts especially if we can laugh at them without hurting others.
To restore balance to the universe, our next project was an engraved map for an 11 year olds middle school project that he designed, while I’ll post sometime soon when I get to the computer vs. my phone.
3 Likes
Guns are not an appropriate subject for kids all over the world. As much as i don’t really understand your views on guns, i’m pretty sure you can’t imagine growing up without ever seeing a gun.
2 years ago there was a terrorist attack in Belgium, and for a while there was armed military in the streets for our “protection”. I’m 34 years old, and that was the first time i saw a gun out in the open. Sure, cops have them on their belt, but a pistol on a belt or an assault rifle that is carried give a whole other feeling.
I got no problem with the fast loader, but i can imagine that other more practical things can be made that could potentially become a problem.
I never had the feeling this was an American forum, until now this really felt like home 
4 Likes
Yikes, I went to bed thinking this was resolved.
You know when a celebrity tweets something that could be misconstrued and then delete the post. They are not deleting the post because there mind has changed on the matter, they are deleting the post becuase they don’t want to spend all day reading comments and go back to the reason they are on Twitter in the first place.
@bar will you please delete my original project post. Everyone has my screenname by now if you are passionate about creating one, we can take the discussion elsewhere.
3 Likes
Correct, if this site is used by kids, let their parents introduce them to a speedloader not this forum.
1 Like
Also, can I suggest that when the next time something like this gets posted. Maybe not take the discussion to the community. An admin could say hey a few of your maslonian peers think this project may not be appropriate for this forum. Would you mind taking the project to another forum. I would have said “oh of course, sorry about that”. Problem solved.
@bar this is not a slight oh you. I do think you did the right thing in this situation by letting the community decide but now that we learned how people will react we can come up with a Version 2.
1 Like
You are far out of topic. The question was about rules!
If accessories for weapon accessories need to be removed, what about CNC machines? CNC is the main component for producing weapons and ammo!
Yeah, you are right the original post was asking how or if rules should be enforced.
I guess then my suggestion would be to add a report flag possibly with a small comment box saying why you feel it is not an appropriate topic. The admins of the forums can then address the situation with the poster. Most Maslonians I feel would not be offended by being asked to remove the post or at least clean it up to be family friendly.
4 Likes
I thought this forum was about CNC woodworking?
3 Likes
My Friend,
that is exactly why I am against rules and pro to let the majority decide on case to case bases.
I would vote the same way for a guillotine or an electric chair posted here.
That the guillotine is used to cut watermelons does not change my view.
What if it is just the arm of the guillotine?
That it is just a tool for a device designed to kill humans, does not make it better.
I’ve not asked anyone to change their view, put down their guns and plant weed instead.
(It might make the world a better place though 
)
This is not a discussion about firearms vs. no firearms. That battle is fought in your country for decades and till date money wins over wisdom, putting it unreachable at the top of sad statistics.
It is more about how to deal with a post that 1 or more Maslowians find ‘inappropriate’.
If someone gets hurt in his feelings she/he should have the right to share and discuss it, I think.
The situation is new and with more members we might have similar situations, so a nice, friendly and polite way to say “Sorry, please not here” is still to be found.
We have the option to flag posts and with enough flags a post becomes invisible until admins or moderators decide what to do with it, but this is exactly the danger you see. A small group gets to decide.
I think Bar is pretty brave to have the garden moderated by the community.
In other forums post and user are deleted in a blink of an eye.
6 Likes
Well put Gero,
I was getting hung up on the guns vs no guns debate tbut thanks to @Jakrro I see that this was intended on having a civilized discussion about how this should be handled in the future when there is a hopefully Maslow in every home.
So moving forward, Lets do like the other 1000 posts I’ve read where Maslonians see a problem a put forward a solution to resolve that problem.
Here are the options I have noticed so far that could help distinguish between appropriate for the Maslow forum and not appropriate for the Maslow forum
1.)
2.)
4 Likes
Good points by all.
Of course this forum was created and is owned by Bar and Hannah, regardless of the power they give us to police our own.
In most forums I have ever been a part of, the “report” button is the default way of expressing your displeasure with something that someone has posted. Then someone in charge has to take the reins and decide to delete or leave a certain post.
If Bar wants this to be community based/policed, that is of course his prerogative, and appears to be happening: a potential issue was brought up, members here are sharing viewpoints and discussing it, but at the end of the day somebody will need to make the final decision on such things. Even a poll doesn’t seem like the best way, because not everyone may vote/see a topic/care and power could quickly be ceded to an organized group of members who would act as de facto moderators with their votes to censor the community.
While I’m surprised at the reaction to, what to me, is a very innocuous creation… I wouldn’t be surprised at the same reaction were the item a swastika or similar, as was noted before.
Some other creations that didn’t arouse ire include the Dark Tower carving with two pistols, and the Minecraft weapons. This piece of wood’s purpose needed to be explained to a lot of members, who didn’t have a problem with actual depictions of weapons? That is where the confusion over “appropriateness” will always lie.
Some thoughts to further progress the discussion:
I’ve seen people on other similar forums carving things like a “US Army” sign. Is that seen as inappropriate since the Army’s main purpose is, in fact, killing?
I was planning on carving the outline of a Blackhawk helicopter for a friend who flies them in a Medevac unit and is deploying overseas soon… is that inappropriate because it is a “tool of war”? Or does the fact he flies Medevacs somehow change the message my project would send, were I to post it here? If the helicopter depicts a machine gun (an actual one, not the mistakenly labeled kind) as part of it’s artwork, does that make it inappropriate?
If I carved a storage rack for my guns, would that post not be welcome? Would it depend on whether those guns were my hunting shotguns/rifles, or my AR-15’s or handguns? What if I carved a sword storage rack for collectable replica swords? Are those ok but the firearms aren’t?
And to go a different direction - would the outline of the marijuana leaf be accepted by the community? As others have stated, (just like firearms), legality and acceptance of weed varies from place to place. I have utterly zero problem with marijuana, but would it offend others?
Keeping with my pro-marijuana stance… nobody seems to have a problem with a wine rack or beer taps. Alcohol is just as controversial as marijuana to some, but one drug is ok and another is not? (I’m not arguing a stance just hoping to generate discussion). If I carved a giant whiskey bottle for my basement bar, would that be acceptable but a giant joint with smoke curling out the end wouldn’t? How about a cigarette or cigar outline?
Closing: I take no issue with following forum rules. If I don’t like the rules I am free to go elsewhere. However, as I have seen, I share a lot in common with other posters and would hate to lose them as idea sounding boards and troubleshooters. Is this forum geared TOWARD schoolchildren? Or are they just a part of the membership, so by default we need to stay within “school” guidelines?
I’m a fan of the idea to create a section of the forum (or, if it could be done, the “age button” for certain topics that could be turned on ) where we can post/discuss projects and ideas more geared toward adults. At the end of the day, the duty to monitor what school children are doing on the internet falls to the adults supervising them… the internet is a big scary place. It would be nice to satisfy both desires, where kids in schools aren’t being exposed to things beyond their age while still balancing with a place for people who aren’t kids to share ideas.
Thanks for listening!
5 Likes
Guns are not an appropriate subject for kids all over the world. As much as i
don’t really understand your views on guns, i’m pretty sure you can’t imagine
growing up without ever seeing a gun.
Actually, I did grow up without ever seeing a real gun (cap pistols, water
pistols, TV, Movies don’t count.
I never had the feeling this was an American forum, until now this really felt like home
To make my comment clearer. It’s not that I view this as an ‘American Forum’ and
non-Americans aren’t welcome. It’s that this forum (and the Maslow organization)
is based in the US, so it must follow US laws. It’s impossible to follow the
laws of every country in the world (as they sometimes conflict with each other)
So for purposes of “what is legal”, I think the forum is required to follow US
law, and it’s a very slippery slope when you start saying that it must follow
other countries laws as well.
Note that I am not a lawyer.
2 Likes