What are your thoughts on chinese spindles?

Hardware Routers/Spindles
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Hi everyone,

I’ve got my 1st kit and I’m looking to put together a gantry style frame similar to TomD’s design.
I am looking at using a spindle instead of a palm router. Here in the UK palm routers are very expensive and I think I am convinced that a spindle designed for CNC work will be better. Quieter, more durable, more believable power rating etc. Seems easier to construct a good zaxis control with a cbeam or similar.

What are your thoughts spindles? have you got one and how do you find it works?

I was going to go 500kW brushless, probably about the equivalent to most relevant routers available? i like brushless motors. but then for not much more ££ I can get a 0.8kW or 1.5kW air cooled spindle with VFD. Water cooled seems a step too far?
Is more power better if back to brushed motor? with a VFD should be easy to turn the rpm right down. I would like to experiment with cutting other materials like aluminium, stone etc (what ever I can find!)
Can you control a VFD via a G code spindle speed command?
What are your thoughts on collets? E11, E16 or E20?
I also have 3 phase 400V in my workshop. I could rig that up to a spindle, well the VFD. Any advantage to that? or just less losses in the VFD?

Thanks for any thoughts on the matter.

This is a great forum and I am looking forward to contributing one day.

WB

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I was going to go 500kW brushless, probably about the equivalent to most relevant routers available? i like brushless motors. but then for not much more ££ I can get a 0.8kW or 1.5kW air cooled spindle with VFD. Water cooled seems a step too far?
Is more power better if back to brushed motor? with a VFD should be easy to turn the rpm right down. I would like to experiment with cutting other materials like aluminium, stone etc (what ever I can find!)

the default routers aren’t palm routers, they are the heavy duty 2.5HP motors,
so many times more powerful than the 500KW motor you are talking about.

that said, with the bits that most people use, and the speed of the stock maslow
motors, it’s drastic overkill, and people have used the 500KW spindle.

Can you control a VFD via a G code spindle speed command?

not currently

What are your thoughts on collets? E11, E16 or E20?

what size bits do you plan to use?

If you are going to build a gantry, I would really suggest that you look into
building a coreXY machine using grbl instead of the maslow setup.

David Lang

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Frankly my dear I don’t give a dam. ( it’s an old movie quote, if you don’t get it don’t worry, move on)

Basically I don’t care where anything comes from I care how it works.

That said yes you are correct apples and oranges are diffrent , both are fruit.

When you start hanging more things on the Aux Port, like spindle control you are introducing more possibilities of disconnects.

I like the KISS principle , however you are in an economic dilemma.

I have car that has hand cranks on the windows. Ever seen someone in a modern car try to roll a window down with a dead battery?

I think you would be fine with a ER11 and manual spindle speed. Get that working well then try the VFD. It should be possible under the GRBL boards in development.

Just one guys opinion.

Thank you

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Thanks for your input.

I saw your post about the coreXY approach in another thread. It does look interesting, I will look more into it. I do like the Maslow approach and ethos tho, having this engaged and dynamic community on this forum is a real plus too. I would like to be able to contribute to it one day.

Re. Router power, my understanding is that the power rating of hand routers is dubious. That what is often quoted is the peak electrical power drawn not the delivered power to the bit. And that a spindles delivered power across the range of rotational speeds can be compared to a hand router 1.5-2 times the size.
I would love to get the recommended router, but here in the UK the AEG equivalent costs $450 in £. i don’t think it is worth it. From memory the makita/dewalt alternatives suggested are rated around 900W, by the rule of thumb multiplier thats about the same as a 0.5kW spindle. I don’t have any actual evidence to back any of this up beyond “what i read on the internet somewhere”. I havent seen any power/torque curves for any of the options I am considering, and all I have is conjecture really. But seems to make sense for me, those spindles are designed for continuous CNC operation.

Re: Bits I dont really know much about. I dont have much experience with this. I’ve only really used hand routers for trimming and edging timber. I dont know what is best in this application. Am I right in thinking that these spindles are generally run with smaller diameter bits?

Thanks for the info on speed control of a VFD. Is this just because of the VFD? is it possible to control speed via the current board and software?

Thanks for your time

WB

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I saw your post about the coreXY approach in another thread. It does look interesting, I will look more into it. I do like the Maslow approach and ethos tho, having this engaged and dynamic community on this forum is a real plus too. I would like to be able to contribute to it one day.

the issue you have is that pulling diagonally on a cartesian frame can run into
problems with the uneven pull causing the frame to rack.

In the 3d maslow thread, one issue we didn’t point out is that by attaching the
chains to fixed points instead of a ring/linkage, the math for bit positioning
is no longer accurate.

Re. Router power, my understanding is that the power rating of hand routers is dubious. That what is often quoted is the peak electrical power drawn not the delivered power to the bit. And that a spindles delivered power across the range of rotational speeds can be compared to a hand router 1.5-2 times the size.
I would love to get the recommended router, but here in the UK the AEG equivalent costs $450 in £. i don’t think it is worth it. From memory the makita/dewalt alternatives suggested are rated around 900W, by the rule of thumb multiplier thats about the same as a 0.5kW spindle. I don’t have any actual evidence to back any of this up beyond “what i read on the internet somewhere”. I havent seen any power/torque curves for any of the options I am considering, and all I have is conjecture really. But seems to make sense for me, those spindles are designed for continuous CNC operation.

Re: Bits I dont really know much about. I dont have much experience with this. I’ve only really used hand routers for trimming and edging timber. I dont know what is best in this application. Am I right in thinking that these spindles are generally run with smaller diameter bits?

If you stick to a 1/4" or smaller bit, you will have no problem with 500w motor
(note, it’s 500w, not 500KW that was said earlier in the thread), I don’t know
if you can go as large as a 1/2" bit with that small a motor, you would have to
experiment.

And it all depends on what you intend to cut with this. Do you plan to cut
things where you are cutting lots of large pockets or want to cut fancy edges
with large bits? if so, you need power and a large diameter bit. If you are
planning to cut things where you are always cutting all the way through the
plywood, then you don’t need a big bit (although a larger bit could let you cut
deeper with each pass if you have the power)

the bottom line is that there are people who are successfully using the 500w
spindle with the maslow.

David Lang

1 Like
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Thanks for your reply Bee.

It occurs to me that my post title might get misinterpreted. I only meant ordered directly from china without paying a middleman in my own country anything. In the UK most things are made overseas, probably because they can do it better and cheaper than here.
I dont care what branded rubber molding gets stuck on or what cardbox it comes in. Its just got to do the job.
KISS=Konvoluted Is Superior, Silly?
At a late stage in life I am studying engineering, one of the reasons I am starting on my maslow project is to learn and to push myself. I dont mind a bit of complication. I have been trying to rein in the crazy ideas, multi-tool heads, plasma cutters etc. I might make a cutting bed that can hold material that isnt flat on 2 sides tho.

Do you run a spindle on your machine?

You are probably right about controlling the speed manually 1st, i just didnt want to block Gcode speed control for the future. I’ve been following the thread on the due board development. looks exciting!

Cheers,

WB

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Thanks David,

Opps 500kW would be slight over kill.:flushed:
typical unit error on my part.

RE: 3d Maslow thread, I thought TomD was still using the ring kit. I remember a detail about printing himself a template/bracket to postion his router exactly in the centre of the ring.
I will bear what you say in mind and design my frame to be backwards compatible if i decide the gantry thing does not work.

As i’ve never had free run of my own CNC router before, in my head I want to be able to do everything. Through cuts of ply, big pockets, harder materials etc. I will see how it goes.

Sounds like I need to get a bigger spindle…

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start with something cheap, upgrade later :slight_smile:

David Lang

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Well, I had a handheld router on my Flatbed CNC, and I replaced it with Chinese VFD watercooled 1.5kW spindle with frequency controller. It works waaaay better then handheld router.First of all, it gives me possibility to use higher cutting speeds, better RPM regulation, using ER20 collets I can use pletora of mills, drills. Water keeps it pleasantly cool. And another big thing is the noise. Actually the lack of it. I can finally hear what is going on with material during cuts.On the other hand, I cut MDF at the speed of 3200mm/min (that being the maximum speed my steppers can do), and the speed on Maslow is (if I have seen correctly) is 800mm/sec, so, supposedly VFD spindle with power of 0.8kW could do the trick. But, The 800W spindle has ER11 collets that can receive tools up to 7mm, and 1.5kW spindle has ER20 collets that can accomodate tools up to 13mm.

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What is the weight of your 1.5kW spindle please?

Thank you

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Thanks for that Alex. Good to hear feed back from people who have used a spindle + VFD.
Been a bit of faff ordering one but im going for 2.2kW pack. HuanYang VFD.

“if brute force isnt working, then you arent using enough of it…”

below 4.5kW there isnt a massive difference price wise, and as you say the E20 collet seems more useful. think the 1.5kw ones i saw were all E16 collets? E20 seems a good size although i almost went for a 3kw E25. But have to stop my self somewhere. It will be a bit of a challenge hooking it all up but doesn’t look too bad. Will be a good learning experience anyways…

How did you go hooking up the water cooling? what did you use? have you got a closed circuit system? do you use a radiator or anything? how do you arrange the pipes to deal with all the movement? i’m a bit worried about a pipe getting popped off by the movement and spraying water everywhere. I reckon i will figure out some kind of flow sensor/alarm system eventually.

WB

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I’m sorry, I made a mistake. My spindle is 2.2 kW. I was planning 1.5kW, but the distributor here, in Serbia, did not have it in stock, so I eventually bought 2.2 kW. And it has ER 20 collet chuck. It weights 5kg or 11lbs. For cooling, I am using water pump that came with the spindle as a kit. It is submerged in a bucket with a lid, PVC hoses go along the cable guides, and for cooling the water, I use a small car radiator (cabin heater) and 120mm 220V fan. The VFD I bought has a Vector mode (Sensorless Vector Drive) but that mode is not applicable for these spindles. Also, The VFD unit should be set properly for the motor it drives, and that could be pain in the a**. Luckily, the distributor has helped me to set it up by the phone call.
I hope that tis was helpful, cheers, Aleksandar.

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