Why isn't any of this information available?

To: DLang

I asked a question.
it’s basic information and should be in one area (not more than one page from “www.maslowcnc.com”) and not have to write an AI data mining program to find it.
I am not accusing anyone of anything.
Remove the stick and inhale.

Thank You

To:Bar

Hello, thank you for responding.

I’m sorry but I think your response is evasive “Those are all pretty broad topics”.
They are not broad. I am asking for exactly what I would like to know.They are very specific:

  1. What are the formulas used with nomenclature?
    Type up and post.

  2. What are the dimensions (diameter/height) of the gears in the gearbox? Measure and post.

  3. What is the gear ratio of each stage of the 4 stages of the gears in the gearbox? count the teeth of each gear and post.

  4. Motor specs are motor specs. voltage, current, RPM, Torque, dimensions.
    Get specs from manufacture and post or get the common model number
    so community can look it up themselves.

  5. What is the output speed of gearbox?
    Measure RPM and post.

I don’t know how else to ask. Not looking for philosophy just the numbers and there are numbers that go to each question.

Thank you for your time.

the maslow is open source enough that there have been multiple people who have
sold kits, are you saying that there is information missing? or that the
existing information needs to be organized differently?

If you aren’t accusing people of acting in bad faith, please explain what you
are asking for.

David Lang

  1. What are the formulas used with nomenclature?
    Type up and post.

formulas for what? the formulas that are in the firmware for calculating the
position? that is different for different firmware

  1. What are the dimensions (diameter/height) of the gears in the gearbox? Measure and post.

diameters don’t matter, overall gear ratio does

  1. What is the gear ratio of each stage of the 4 stages of the gears in the gearbox? count the teeth of each gear and post.

why? only the overall ratio matters right?

  1. Motor specs are motor specs. voltage, current, RPM, Torque, dimensions.
    Get specs from manufacture and post or get the common model number
    so community can look it up themselves.

umm, did you look at the BOM that lists this?

  1. What is the output speed of gearbox?
    Measure RPM and post.

the stock motors will do ~20 rpm at max power

David Lang

for the motor, I believe that this is a 24v version of the motor (specs pretty
much the same, but with higher torque and speed than the 12v version)

note that different kit manufacturers may include different motors.

David Lang

Edit (previous post contents not helpful):

Formulae: Firmware/Kinematics.cpp at master · MaslowCNC/Firmware · GitHub

a simple search on the forum will get you what you seek:

gearbox info see post 7 for gear ratios. More here. you can change them if you want. the encoder is on the motor shaft, not on the gearbox shaft, so it’s counts wont change if you change the gearing. The sprocket is a 9 tooth 1/4" link.

curious: why shouldn’t community members have had to go into the gearbox to get information? The gearbox came with the motor as an assembly item. It was not designed for this application, it is an off-the-shelf item available in mass quantity (or at least it used to be). The manufacturer should have the info you seek. It isn’t like it is proprietary information. It makes sense now that you bring it up, that this might be useful to archive. But “c’mon man,” your claim of lack of open source isn’t really valid because the “community” didn’t cough up facts fast enough for you when you could have looked them up with a little google-fu.

2 Likes

formulas for what? the formulas that are in the firmware for calculating the
position? that is different for different firmware.

Angles, sprocket size, chain length, chain tension, sled angles, sled weight, frame bar thickness… any formula/all formulas.
what you used to come up with what you have. Why does it have to be one or two?

  1. What are the dimensions (diameter/height) of the gears in the gearbox? Measure and post.

diameters don’t matter, overall gear ratio does.

It matters if your scaling, customizing or replacing the plastic inside with metal.

  1. What is the gear ratio of each stage of the 4 stages of the gears in the gearbox? count the teeth of each gear and post.

why? only the overall ratio matters right?

It matters if your scaling, customizing or replacing the plastic inside with metal.

  1. Motor specs are motor specs. voltage, current, RPM, Torque, dimensions.
    Get specs from manufacture and post or get the common model number
    so community can look it up themselves.

umm, did you look at the BOM that lists this?

B.O.M. list specs of the gearbox only not the motor other than its voltage not even its model#.

  1. What is the output speed of gearbox?
    Measure RPM and post.

the stock motors will do ~20 rpm at max power
[/quote]

Thank you, one straight answer and yes, I did find this one in the B.O.M. this time, it wasn’t always there.

I not looking to argue or debate if it is required, I don’t care if everyone on the planet thinks it doesn’t matter. I do, and I know others do because have asked me if I found anything.

I would like that data available without the questions and the wasted five message exchanges like here.

Here is how it should go.

Example:

Question: What are the motor specs, please?
Reply: It is a Modle-775, 24V, 1A, 6000RPM dual ball bearing, 42mm dia X 66mm len.,.Shaft-5mm dia X 17mm len.

Courtesy reply:Thank you.

End example

See quick no fuss no muss. You got to help, member got their answer.
All are happy.

Thank You

formulas for what? the formulas that are in the firmware for calculating the
position? that is different for different firmware.

Angles, sprocket size, chain length, chain tension, sled angles, sled weight, frame bar thickness… any formula/all formulas.
what you used to come up with what you have. Why does it have to be one or two?

most of that is ‘it works’, there wasn’t that much analysis done :slight_smile:

the sprocket sizes are the smallest available that fit the motors

chain length is ‘long enough to reach’, the 10’ top beam was that lumber comes
in that size and it seems reasonable and seemed to work.

Later investigation shows that there is a significant advantage in going to a
12’ top beam, most of the math showing this is available in the spreadsheet I
created. This shows chain tension, and experimentation has shown that more min
tension is better, and max tension can’t be too high or you have trouble in the
top center (again, with the original motors/power supply)

the math isn’t perfect, but it seems to be ‘good enough’

frame bar thickness is ‘2x4 is the default dimension for US lumber’ and the
prototype worked. It may be better to have a stronger top beam, but no real
analysis has been done.

frame angle, accidental testing that was done during the design of the new frame
(i.e. Bar not following my instructions in building a test frame :slight_smile: ) showed us
that 20 degree tilt back is too much. We had someone test with 5 degree tilt
back and they found that the sled tended to push away from the workpiece instead
of drilling in. We haven’t had anyone test 10 vs 15 degrees (let alone anything
more specific) to see where the real sweet spot is.

As for the sled weight, before the first prototype, Bar did testing with lots of
things, including 6+ bricks on the sled, very heavy chains, etc and the result
ended up being the two brick weight ‘worked’.

Since then, we found all sorts of new info. We know that a sled that’s much
heavier runs into problems (the motors can’t move it near the top center), but
we really haven’t tested much with varying the weight. The early versions of the
code did nothing to account for the chain sagging (which will be more
significant with a lighter sled), and I don’t know of any testing that has been
done since holey calibration was invented which partially accounts for chain
sag.

mostly, this isn’t a matter of formula and calculations as much as ‘the
prototype worked and we’ve mostly followed along with that since’

  1. What are the dimensions (diameter/height) of the gears in the gearbox? Measure and post.

diameters don¢t matter, overall gear ratio does.

It matters if your scaling, customizing or replacing the plastic inside with metal.

if you are doing that, you should just build a complete new gearbox or purchase
the gears because there’s a lot more detail than just hight/diameter of the
gears.

  1. What is the gear ratio of each stage of the 4 stages of the gears in the gearbox? count the teeth of each gear and post.

why? only the overall ratio matters right?

It matters if your scaling, customizing or replacing the plastic inside with metal.

same answer

  1. Motor specs are motor specs. voltage, current, RPM, Torque, dimensions.
    Get specs from manufacture and post or get the common model number
    so community can look it up themselves.

umm, did you look at the BOM that lists this?

B.O.M. list specs of the gearbox only not the motor other than its voltage not even its model#.

ok, I posted a link to a motor in the same family, that should answer your
questions.

  1. What is the output speed of gearbox?
    Measure RPM and post.

the stock motors will do ~20 rpm at max power
[/quote]

Thank you, one straight answer and yes, I did find this one in the B.O.M. this time, it wasn’t always there.

I not looking to argue or debate if it is required, I don’t care if everyone on the planet thinks it doesn’t matter. I do, and I know others do because have asked me if I found anything.

I would like that data available without the questions and the wasted five message exchanges like here.

Here is how it should go.

Example:

Question: What are the motor specs, please?
Reply: It is a Modle-775, 24V, 1A, 6000RPM dual ball bearing, 42mm dia X 66mm len.,.Shaft-5mm dia X 17mm len.

Courtesy reply:Thank you.

End example

See quick no fuss no muss. You got to help, member got their answer.
All are happy.

you are asking for information that nobody knows, and you are asking people to
go take apart their equipment to measure stuff, that doesn’t justify an
automatic ‘here are the details you are asking for’ response you seem to be
expecting.

David Lang

1 Like

Somehow I got an email notification on this thread…not sure why… and so I’m just going to crawl back under my rock again cause I don’t know anything…I’m sorry but I’m ignorant. I didn’t do it.

1 Like

[/quote] you are asking for information that nobody knows, and you are asking people to go take apart their equipment to measure stuff, that doesn’t justify an automatic ‘here are the details you are asking for’ response you seem to be expecting.

David Lang
[/quote]

That is exactly the point.
Maslow is 7 years old. Someone should know.

People have taken apart their equipment measure stuff.
https://forums.maslowcnc.com/t/whats-inside-the-gearbox-motor/190

You are very smart people. This stuff should be a for thought not an after thought. Initial information should be documented with detailed specs of each item (for WHEN the item is no longer available). So a close match can be found when needed or used as a base to find higher performance options.

There are a lot of electronic projects that are dead because one component and its datasheet is no longer available.

To me, the information I requested and everything else I don’t know to ask for yet, should be on a PDF or spreadsheet created 7 years ago and updated as often as possible. That should be the foundation your knowledge is based on.

Thank You for what you could answer.

Where did you post the information on the motor, Github?

Thank You

here it is again

this is a 24v version, so it’s 28 rpm instead of 20 and has more torque, but
it’s the same size.

people were actually building their own Maslow before the first kits shipped
sourcing everything themselves.

nothing in the motor is critical, it just is a selection that works with the
stock controller board (limited by the current capacity of the controller and
power supply), people have build maslow systems with many other motors.

David Lang

Thank you, thought the first one was an AD.

But, it’s still the gearbox assembly/unit, not just the motor.
There are motors that are the some diameter but longer that may have a higher RPM or Torque but if you don’t know where to start from…

I know you don’t know, I’m not asking again, I’m just stating I was always asking about the gearbox and motor separately/independently of each other.

Thank You

Topics in forum that support my statements. one
They are asking the same thing I am.
I started not of these and have no posting in any of them but (Whats inside the gearbox/motor).

Whats inside the gearbox/motor?

Explanation of the math for moving the sled?

Frame Geometry Question

Upgrading XY motors to double bearings and all metal gears

Willing to open broken motor? Help needed

X/Y motor specs vague

Finding Center of Gravity for the Sled Ring

New Stock Frame Design

Gearbox Failure - Are We Exceeding Motor Design Limits?

Alternate Supply of Motors/Gears/Encoders

Motor gears stripped

Another left motor gear failure, need a solution

Triangular Linkage Evaluation Criteria and Measurements

Fun with Numbers - Calculating Motor Load Force

Calibration pattern for triangular kinematics

What is distance of motor mount to worksurface?

Motor distance question

What is correct chain pitch?

25 more I got tired.

in the case of the maslow, Bar found a unit he could get from china that worked,
min order 1000. this unit seems to be the equivalent and the worm gear on the
motor shaft appears to be pressed on. We have no info on the motor separately,
it’s all one unit for us. (motor, encoder, and gearbox)

David Lang

@bar , I am assuiming you have access to this information but can you give us the current total of:

  1. Number of individual posts to the forum.
  2. Number of individual comments made to all posts in the forum.

With all due respect (honestly!), it seems to me that Mr bteddy should get off his high-expectations pedestal and roll up his sleeves to do his own work instead of expecting it from others like it’s some sort of commercial operation.

Open source means everyone can contribute, including you. But don’t EXPECT anyone to contribute! They do so out of their own good will, not to serve you.

If the documentation is lacking in your strong opinion then get off your own arse and fix it yourself! Get a machine. Build it. Take it to bits. Make the measurements and post them in some documentation. No one will stop you doing like they might do if the product was proprietary. But why should anyone else do it? Do it yourself - you’re owed nothing.

To Bar, Orob, dlang (and more I haven’t named who haven’t posted to this thread specifically), your continued support of others in these forums for free doesn’t go unnoticed and your posts have helped many souls. Thank you for your contributions.

Signed,
Happy Maslow tinkerer who thinks the openness of the project is one of the very best parts about it!

3 Likes

I don’t think you have a good understanding of the history of the Maslow project. As someone who has participated in it from it’s kickstarter days, let me offer my observations.

Yes, that is exactly how it happened and exactly how it should have happened. That was the intent of THIS particular open source project at least. The fact that it wasn’t documented in the manner that you expect isnt their fault. The Maslow project isn’t a Phd disertation, it’s a high school shop class.

This project was never a profit driven enterprise, @bar may have had plans for it to be at one point but for whatever reason, they didn’t materialize. As such there was no real documentation or configuration control scheme deployed. Had this been a commercial operation, there would have been a structured, revision control systems utilized. The modifications to the mechanical design and software modifications would have been thoroughly vetted and the standard Maslow design would have been updated. There would have been an adherence to design basis principles.

This project, from day one, has always been a group of people buying kits and doing fuck’al whatever they wanted with them. It was always subject to the whims of the individuals involved and the time contraints under which they were working. If someone had the time to document their findings, great. If not, well thats knowledge lost to time. The best we could hope for was a quick forum post detailing what they found to leave a breadcrumb for someone in the future. Barring that then what we got were community driven updates to either the Maslow firmware or the control software (Ground Control, Web Control). Since each Malsow build is a unique, and in some cases a grossly modified version of the original Maslow design developed by @bar, there is no such thing as a standard Maslow. Which means there is no Maslow standard to maintain.

There has never been a steering committee or some cabal to keep things on the rails and enforce standards. Memebers who were extremly active at the beginning have all but dropped off the face of the earth by now. Others have hung on and still provide institutional knowledge. Everyone else has been free to contribute to this effort however we wanted or could. The project provided basic guidance to get a machine set up and built but that was about it. From that point everyone pretty much went in their own direction and documented what they did if time and capability allowed.

Sometimes you can’t see the forrest through the trees. The community is all around you. The core firmware has been so heavily modified by the community that @bar can’t tell you how many parts of it even work. Web Control was developed by the community to replace Ground Control when GC became obsolete. Web Control is currently undergoing a major revision and update by @orob and the community as we speak, specificaly so it doesnt become abandon-ware. @blrfl and many others in the community quickly developed upgraded shield designs to replace the first generation model that was marginaly designed at best (sorry @bar). I myself spent 400 hours in that specific effort, with @bar even helping me! @dlang and others developed the spreadsheet that greatly standardized the design of the Maslow geometry and removed a whole lot of guesswork.

My point is you are judging the entirty of the Malow project based on a set of statndards that don’t apply to it. For four+ years the community was focused on just getting the thing to work and then, work better. In that respect then we have been wildly successfull. This thing shouldn’t work, but it does and does so remarkebly well. Performing a detailed reverse engineering exercise on the motor gearbox was not a priority. Documenting design basis simply was not a concern.

The communities input into the Maslow may not exist as a white paper or a design basis document. Instead it exists as what must be by now tens of thousands of forum posts as well as firmware and software revisions. Oh, and the people themselves. Is this an efficient way of running a project? Hell no. It sucks because so many lessons have been learned and forgotten or learned but never shared. It can take hours to research and solve a problem, only to find that the answer to the problem was found three years ago. If anything, this method of running a project is proof that n-stage libertarianism or communsim or any political ideology for that matter, will eventualy evolve into bloated and inflexible ideologies that will fail under the weight of their own inefficiency. But I digress.

What you are asking for is a detailed design package that fully documents every aspect of the current Maslow standard. That’s a great idea. My only question is, which one do we pick? What you are also asking for is a road map to the destination. I can’t speak for anyone else but I have been part of this for four years+ for the journey. I’ve met some awesome poeple, mastered Fusion 360 and AutoCAD, learned a bit of python, learned EagleCAD and how to get PCB’s manufactured. Oh, and after 25 years in the automation industry, have finaly figured out the most basic of ways to explain the three elements of PID control to the layperson. By the way, I just got a job specificaly because I knew Fusion and CAM which I wouldn’t have learned without having participated in Maslow. So THANKS @bar and the community for, you know, a career.

I am fortunate to live in a part of the US where we still do a yearly town meeting. Every year, there is always the jackass who stands up and spends his or hers five minutes just complaining about this or that. They offer no solutions or any ideas what so ever. They sit down and are for the most part ignored because they are offering no controibutions to the community.

I echo @macgeeknz suggestion above in that if you have found a deficiency in how the Maslow community has handled the documenting of the engineering of the machine then:

  1. Understand we are ALL aware of this particular defficiency so you haven’t exactly uncovered a great conspiracy.
  2. Determine what the current Maslow standard should be and then find a few thousand hours to go back in time and review the extensive forum history to determine how it got there.
  3. Budget a few thousand more hours to doccument it thoroughly. With detailed drawings and design data of all the critical components and software involved. Including a complete reverse engineering of all mechanical components and white papers that describe How the Maslow firmware functions and just what all the elements within it do.

We await your input to the community.

3 Likes

You are absolutely correct. When I was looking at building my own maslow, there was a list of parts but no sources. I was creating pull requests against the repo and finding independent sources of the parts. I was able to get the manufacturer to send 2 sample motors from china and once I had them I thought it would be nice to know more about their insides. I opened them up and wanted to share what I found. What a rotation to pulse ratio was and what parts inside might fail.

you were included because you were part of one of the many…… many…… many forum posts he linked to. Given the age of some of them, i would guess hundreds of people had their inbox implode. You are not alone :slight_smile: