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Would you pre-order or wait?


#1

Hi everyone.
Last week I’ve found this open source, and this great community.
I would love to put my hands on one kit, i see there’re a couple of future sellers for this kit and I have a few questions.
I mean, kickstarter is a great place to “kickstart” an idea/project, and also safe to supporters to put their money in, but preorder from a fresh web site is a whole different thing. Don’t get me wrong on this, I just sharing my thoughts.
I’ve contacted the Chinese D/C motors factory and they’re saying that the lead time for this motors is 3 to 4 months.
Are this guys just collecting money to then make the order, or they already did it.
I would love to see any pics before committing $500, again I’m not saying they won’t deliver, but I don’t want to be left waiting for months without end, especially when is an other seller that’s saying he will have kits available by the same date, and also showing pics of what he already has invested in.
What the community would recommend, wait for available kits or preorder?


#2

Hi everyone.
Last week I’ve found this open source, and this great community.
I would love to put my hands on one kit, i see there’re a couple of future sellers for this kit and I have a few questions.
I mean, kickstarter is a great place to “kickstart” an idea/project, and also safe to supporters to put their money in, but preorder from a fresh web site is a whole different thing. Don’t get me wrong on this, I just sharing my thoughts.
I’ve contacted the Chinese D/C motors factory and they’re saying that the lead time for this motors is 3 to 4 months.

they also have a minimum order quantity of something like 1000

Are this guys just collecting money to then make the order, or they already did it.

There are two groups that have announced kits

one for $600 due to ship in November, they are modifying the design of some of
the components, but they are working with the community to finalize things. They
are not taking pre-orders

one for $500 due to ship in December, they are shipping exactly what Bar shipped
before (just a bit more expensive since they are not buying as large a
quantity). They have been working with Bar for a couple months to get everything
right.

I would love to see any pics before committing $500, again I’m not saying they won’t deliver, but I don’t want to be left waiting for months without end, especially when is an other seller that’s saying he will have kits available by the same date, and also showing pics of what he already has invested in.

the pictures are going to be exactly the same as what Bar shipped, as they are
shipping exactly the same components.

If you wait for them to have some in, you may find that you are far enough down
the order list that you will have to wait for the next batch to be shipped

What the community would recommend, wait for available kits or preorder?

we don’t know either of these groups much more than you do, so there is a
possibility of failure with either of them (just like there is with a
kickstarter order)

wait or preorder will depend on if you care about saving the shipping (not a lot
of money), and how badly you want to get one. If you want to be sure that you
are early enough in line to get one of the December batch, you should preorder,
if you are willing to wait (and possibly wait until the next batch), you can
hold off.

David Lang


#3

kick starter is not safe at all, in fact if you read their terms and the history of abuses it’s about as risky as you can get. https://www.thrillist.com/gear/kickstarter-frauds-worst-crooks-in-crowdfunding#
you are not buying a product you are donating to a company, who may or may not deliver with few consequences.

You are much better off buying online with a credit card.(but not a debit card, those are totally different) All credit card companies protect you from fraud. Just call them up and ask the cc company what your protections are.


#4

yeah but what about lead time ,if it is 3 month they wont be ready for december ?

the pictures are going to be exactly the same as what Bar shipped, as they are
shipping exactly the same components.

i was looking to see pictures of what ever they have on stock ,i din not mean original pics . i mean whatever they have in stock for the kits , if they have any?


#5

yeah but what about lead time ,if it is 3 month they wont be ready for december ?

they will be if they ordered a month or more ago, which is what they and Bar are
saying taht they did.

i was looking to see pictures of what ever they have on stock ,i din not mean original pics . i mean whatever they have in stock for the kits , if they have any?

that’s not going to be much yet, if they are planning to ship in December, then
they don’t have much in yet (things will probably be arriving in November and
December), and even then, big boxes of things don’t make for good pictures

If you are worried that you don’t want to order until you have proof that they
have parts, then you need to wait until after they start shipping (because they
will probably start shipping within a couple days of the last parts arriving),
at which point you will probably have to wait until their second order of parts
(another few months) a they are likely to sell out their first run based on the
number of people expressing interest.

How paranoid do you want to be? How willing are you to risk missing the first
batches and have to wait several more months? how worried are you going to be
that they don’t deliver their additional batches?

David Lang


#6

Our initial order was just 300 motors. ( 200 regular plus 100 for z). If a company gets them shipped dhl express or air freight they could get them even faster, but we are using the slow boat from China and it has to go through the Panama Canal so slower than usa west coast companies :(.


#7

We ordered 1000 motors in September and have one of our guys on the ground in China to take delivery. All kits will be consolidated in China and shipped direct to our international customers to avoid double taxation. He is making trips to factories today and will have pictures posted of all of our current inventory.


#8

Hi Maslowians :slight_smile:

I disagree with that, you can file a dispute an they will intermediate.
The CC company will put a hold on the money, until they get to a resolution and may release the funds to the merchant or not.
In the case of dealing with small merchants, timing is very important to file a complaint, i you happen to file a complaint after (usually 30 days) the money was released to the merchant, it’s little the CC company can do, unless the merchant is a big retailer or something with a BIG revolving account, your money is GONE.

In this case you are putting money down, well in advance of the supposedly delivery time, by the time you figure something is wrong, your money will be long gone. For an llc all they have to do is declare bankruptcy an done.

Even worst, pre-order on a product with NO specific delivery date, NO return policy, NO mention of returning any money in case they don’t meet delivery dates, No warranty, NOTHING on writing.

I’m not saying they are not legit, but now days the internet is full of scammers and dreamers.
Just be cautious.

This is not the original (and wonderful) project of bar, these are just business men after a profit, why not wait and see what they actually have to offer?

If i was this project manager, I would not allow any one to take pre-orders capitalizing on bar’s idea, reputation and success, until they prove themselves, let them sell a couple dozen kits, before taking money in advance.

Let me know what u think.


#9

I think this is an unjust characterization in this instance. One company of active members is working to assemble and sell kits that incorporate improvements that the user group has developed and the other has worked with bar to assemble kits that are the same as those he developed. That they have a markup over cost seems fair and reasonable.


#10

I was just saying credit cards are safer than kickstarters. 60 days is the minimum time allowed for CC disputes, but most credit card companies have periods that are much longer especially when the dispute is non receipt of goods. Call up one’s own credit card for specific advice IMHO


#11

Got to admit it! You’ve lost me there.

If you have a guy in china, I guess you have means of transporting the bulk packages to at least a small warehouse for sorting and packaging, right? Or he’s planning on doing it in his hotel room?
Still free shipping worldwide? what about to South America where a package of 1 kg shoe box size may cost up to $120? or you’re planning on using the cheapest shipping that may take up to 60 days? how he’s going to ship the kits? he speaks Cantonese? He bought a car/truck or will take a taxi to the local China Post?

I’ve been in southeastern China myself several times, at Shenzhen and Hong Kong, and things there are way, way, way different than here. To open a business there is not easy at all, no to mention the language.
The burden of paperwork is overwhelming, and can take several months to be APPROVED, pay various incorporation fees, show proof of CAPITAL among others, like prove you have a profitable business back in your country…and on and on…
Also do you know, there is NO free internet access, and by free i mean unrestricted, no google, no ebay…
you will have to find a paid VPN to access the world, or go to HK.

Are you anticipating huge profits to cope with the overhead?
Do you know that if you have a profitable business overseas, you still have to pay profit taxes back in US? and if you sell in the state where your business is at, won’t matter if you produce in china, you are entitled to collect sales taxes on behalf of that state, no to mention import taxes?


#12

Sorry, I didn’t mean to be rude.


#13

That’s OK, sorry if I misunderstood. Online communication makes subtlety hard and misunderstanding all too easy. Welcome to the forum!


#14

Thanks buddy.


#15

They are looking to eliminate shipping all the parts to the US (if I am not
mixing up companies, shipping through the panama canal to the east coast of the
US) only to turn around and ship back out of the US to the rest of the world.

Instead they have someone who can assemble the kits in China and ship them from
there to the non-US customers.

avoiding the tarrifs and shipping costs from the US can probbly cover the costs
of this pretty easily (especially if someone lives in China already who can do
this)

As I learned shipping the top mount kits. Ship anywhere in the US in 2-3 days
for $7. Cross the border into Canada and it’s $35 and takes a month or more.A
medium box is $14 in the US and $70 international, I cringe to think what a
large box ($19 in the US) would cost to cross the border.

David Lang


#16

He lives in Shenzhen and works for a company there. Kitting and consolidation will be performed in China so everything will be packaged when it ships. DHL accounts are already in place and import taxes will be prepaid on all kits bound for the states. International shipments will be handled in a manner that meets their country’s laws. I myself am not an expert in international logistics, but TJ and Patrick (my partners) are.

To your previous post about us just being business men trying to make a buck…
Bar personally put the word out to the community that he was no longer going to produce the kits and that he was looking to the community to provide them. It wasn’t until then that we even had an idea to do this. Every component we are buying is coming directly from the people Bar purchased them from. Many conversations were had with Bar prior to anything happening and he personally made the introductions so we could ensure that these ARE the same kits that Bar sold.

The pre-orders have been co-ordinated with stripe and paypal and their cash reserves requirements have been met. Refund and return policies are being drafted now and will be added to the site soon. Anyone that decides they no longer want a kit during the pre-order will receive their money back.

I’m aware that in this digital age, people need to protect themselves and remain skeptical. We are doing everything we can to show we are 100% legitimate and worthy of people’s trust.

I appreciate you sharing your concerns and creating an opportunity for us to address topics that I’m sure others have similar concerns about.

If you have any more questions or feel I haven’t fully answered the ons that have already been asked, just let me know.

-Chris


#17

Motors have the highest lead times out of all the components. The metal pieces can take up to 5 weeks depending on what color powdercoat the line is running when your parts are cut. Most electronics are between 14 and 21 days depending on what MOQ level you purchased.

We currently have 600 motors completed and are in the middle of manufacturing the gearboxes for them. Bar helped identify an opportunity to make the internal gear better and notified the factory. They adjusted and got them made for him and now they are back to working on our order.

Pictures will for sure be posted as items are delivered to TJ (our guy in China). We are working to get some production line images to better tell the “story”, but those have to be coordinated with the factories, as they want their facilities to look as good as possible in images being distributed online.

Shipping directly from china will help us ensure our ship dates are achieved because slow boating to the states and then shipping from Arkansas will cost about the same as air freighting each individual kit to its owner directly from China. This will also decrease the amount of time it takes to get from factory to owner.

As far as pre-ordering or waiting, we are only doing pre-orders for 150 kits and have a production schedule for about 500. If anyone would like to wait, we want them to do what is comfortable for them. The money from the pre-orders is going to sit in a reserve account until their ship date and then be used for more kits and spare parts to support the existing owners of these machines.

If you ever have questions, feel free to reach out and one of us (Chris, Patrick, TJ) will gladly answer.

-Chris


#18

Hi All,

To tag onto what Chris has said, the MakerMade team is 100% dedicated to supporting this community and creating a quality product that reflects Bar’s vision. We’re taking pre-orders on the 150 right now, but as Chris mentioned, we have inventory in line for a lot more. I think we can all agree that burning bridges with this group for the fist 150 kits would be about the worst way to ensure we sell the rest :slight_smile:

While I can say Chris, TJ, and I were each followers and supporters of the original Maslow project and really believe in the mission, it’s totally understandable (and probably smart) to have a healthy level of skepticism. That said, we just hope you provide support in whatever way you’re comfortable with. If you believe in what we’re about and are interested in placing an order we will do everything we can to ensure you receive exactly what you wanted. If you’re not ready to order but have more recommendations about how we can improve the experience, site, product, etc, we’d love to get that feedback too.

Thanks!

Patrick


#19

While it’s popular to belittle business and profit, it’s hard to live on altruism. Would you work without a paycheck? Take your life savings (or borrowing money and committing to repayment) and risk them? Profit comes from taking a chance of increasing that money to cover the chance of losing part or all of it?

I agree with you about avoiding presales in most cases, certainly spending more than I’d be willing to risk if things turn bad, but strongly disagree with knocking business and profit.

Moose climbs down off soapbox


Project of the Week / Community Gardener for October 24, 2018
#20

Hello

I’m apologize if i hurt your feelings, seems that it didn’t come out right. I’m myself a small business owner and it’s nothing wrong in being in business after a profit.
My point was, that been trying to profit from this project is different from the original idea and motto of Bar,
“…the goal of making large format CNC technology available to everyone…”
Three partners, may drive the price up.

I think you just mentioning it after I’ve pointed that up, because before my comments you did nothing but set up the pre order website.

You’re welcome, but i would’ve loved to see all this points addressed before I pointed them out.
It shows to me how immature from a business stand point you are in my opinion. You just focused on collecting the money without giving a second thought about to how you would return money or a warranty policy or meet delivery dates, not a single word.

I really hope you do right on your quest, I’m only writing to make members of this community aware of scammers and dreamers.
Many people think that is easy to deal with chinesse Co. without realizing what they are getting into.
Chinesse culture is different in many ways, right or wrong it’s their culture and i don’t judge them, but you need to know that for many nationals, scamming a person is ok as long as they get away with it, you may find that your local grocery store guy is charging you double today, and after you point that out he will just smile at you like noting had happen.
Many companies there behave the same way, they deal as if it’s no tomorrow. It all depends on the niche of market you are in and how much of the market the co. you are dealing with controls, if they have close competitors, then they my take god care of you to make sure you will return, but if they own the market, well you are in their hands.
So it is many factors besides the product, quality and price, that will decide what you are getting for your money, and more important here, THEIR PROMISE ON THE DELIVERY DATES.
For that reason it is wise to wait until you have the product on hand to start selling it.

I see in my opinion a few red flags here.
You have posted a picture showing the samples just got past week.
In a normal chain of events, you do a research, order samples and commit to buy, it seems to me that you haven’t made any order yet?
You can come back at me saying those are the new and improved motors and the originals are well on their way, BUT that would be shooting yourself on the foot right? You haven’t deliver the older ones, and already showing the new model? who will want the older now? just saying, no good marketing.

I don’t buy the china guy at all, it’s not enough profit to support three partners, just my opinion.

Now you are offering $200 deposit? if I was one of the pre order guys (if any) I would ask for $300 back right now.

I really really hope you deliver what you’ve promised to this community, I do not own the truth and i hope I’m wrong.

Cheers :slight_smile: