I would not delete anything from the website yet. The website works right now at getting people started and up and running. These are not finished yet.
wouldchuck wrote:
I would not delete anything from the website yet. The website works right now
at getting people started and up and running. These are not finished yet.
Assuming that #550 works and it is able to recreate the web pages from the .md
(or at least produce ‘good enough’ versions), I think the path should be to
migrate each page from the website to be managed from git and go from there.
David Lang
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Seeing all the cool 3d printed parts like the router b gone and the pen attachment today it seems like we need a place for storing those somewhere as well as the base Maslow design files. I don’t have a printer or know much about those so not sure what form it should take.
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Clarity on copyright and IP for maslow has been bothering me. I just want to make sure that I understand the situation as we write up stuff. I don’t have an issue with what the IP arrangement might be I just really want to understand it. Maslow is made as an open source machine? I was thinking about the shapeoko project. It really took off and kits are available now from many retailers, It was wildly successful in making cnc machining an achiveable goal for ordinary people. The shape oko brand was sold to a high end company that makes very nice complete machines. The idea of the plates and simple components is now out there in the wild and being sold by many people. https://makerstore.cc/product-category/cnc-machining/?srsltid=AfmBOoqoXih1cKVCwYBWDU-VkzMawkr48LErtM1hYKlS7mE4tjQW-UB4
Shapeoko as a community has dispersed. The original designers who were selling the kits out of their garage in a similar scale to the Maslow were able to get paid something eventually by selling the brand? which hopefully helped them.
Maslow is at a cusp point with the maslow4 design and I just want to make sure that I don’t mess up something when I am writing documents on the official repo. Currently Bar owns the molds and the design is good but maybe one iteration away from being great. The software to make it an effective tool is being developed open source by volunteers mostly? At some point soon other people are going to sell the physical parts. I think it is important for Bar to decide on the licenses and language on the pieces of the project and make sure we have that language in the build of the repo. repos? and to think about the future for how to support his investment of time and money.
I don’t know all of the history or issues, I just want to get it right as the repo gets set up.
It seems to me like the designs and parts and software are being sent out into the world and are super exciting right now to be part of making it cool. At some point they will be out and forking in many different ways under different names.
Does the maslow brand at that point become the supportive community? How does that support the people (Bar) who have done the investment to make it happen? Does the brand become a name to be sold? Perfectly fine, but maybe make decisions now about what that might look like. Does the brand become an accreditation and licensing body for training and supprort? It feels like this might be the best way to go if you are handing out the designs and software for free.
I realized that I had written some effusive copy about the project being open and free in the documents that I have written and that have been then published on the repo and I just want to make sure I understand the legal situation and long term plan.
Assuming Bar would be the one to make the next set of molds and try to sell them is there a license on the exact designs used for the molds that needs to be protected and monetized? Disney style, the core information is public domain but the director’s cut or retouched version is copyrighted?
Will cross post on the how to make money thread but what are the current costs of keeping the project running and is there a way to support it to ensure that next iteration? Currently the project rests on one person paying for a website, forum costs?, repo costs? advertising? time supporting users, and then warehousing parts. All the community work in developing the software, supporting users, and developing the next set of physical design changes is a huge investment by people having fun but the website and molded parts and pcbs sure are nice and keep that going needs to be in the structure of how we set this part up.
There are trademarks and copyrights, they are different things.
the code, documentation, and CAD files for the parts are protected by copyright
(and there are licenses, potentially different licenses for different chunks of
things, FluidNC is under GPLv3, so our modifications to it need to be under the
same license. Bar will need to specify the licenses for everything else)
Trademarks (the name maslowCNC and logos) are completely separate. They are
owned by Bar.
someone could make a version of the maslow that used the same software and sell
it, they would be ok as long as they did not use the name or logo
there was a company that did make a version of the maslow, and they used the
name and logo and have caused confusion among customers/users thinking that it
was a newer version of the official thing (supported by Bar and the community)
David Lang
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I think that the shapoko analogy is a good one.
Our goal is to develop the technology of this kind of machine to the point that other companies can take it up and start building them too. I’d love to see a whole ecosystem of different types of machines built on the idea the same way that shapeoko has created.
I’m not really planning on getting paid at some point. I actually know Edward (the founder of shapeoko) from way back in the day and I don’t think that he ever really cashed out, but I think that he is stoked to have made something that people like.
@dlang is right that there are different licenses for different files which we inherited from the original creators of the open source projects that we can’t change, but wherever we get to pick the license I go for GPL v3 for software or CC-BY for things like CAD files. The respective licenses should be listed in each of the files.
The name Maslow CNC is a trademark just so folks know who they are buying things from. There is an ongoing legal dispute with MakerMade who are attempting to trademark the name to force us out of it (or force us to pay them money) that is working it’s way through the courts, but we’ll win that eventually (because obviously they didn’t start Maslow). It’s just a big waste of time and money, but it’s a fight we have to fight because changing the name would be a pain in the butt and confuse everyone.
Where did you put the writeup? I can take a look.
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In the readme there is a section about it being opensource. I think it might be somewhere else too.
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I took a look and I think that it all looks great.
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This is false:
I would be happy to have an entire conversation with you about this. So far, it’s just been disparaging remarks made under my ownership. But if you want to know the entire backstory about MakerMade and my ‘divorce’, I would be glad to discuss with you, but not in a public forum. I’ve offered this before, and the offer still stands. It is very far off from the Patrick Kinnamon version he’s been bullshitting you for years (as he has been doing his entire life).
I’ve always been happy to help. It is you who started this entire project, and you rightfully should have any intellectual property you claim, including the Maslow CNC names. But MakerMade (a/k/a now as Makerhub LLC) has nothing to do with your ongoing disputes with former MakerMade staff and/or suppliers and/or those no longer involved in any way, shape, or form with Makerhub or me.
Thanks,
–t.j.
tjw@makermade.com
& I’ll be happy to provide my phone number by email if you’d like to reach out.
We’ve been down this road a lot of times. I get that you feel like you aren’t responsible, but you also haven’t been willing to help in any way. The most generous possible interpretation of the facts is that MakerMade created a mess and has no interest in cleaning it up.
I have a hard time believing that makermade.com and Amazon.com/MakerMade have no relationship and no communication at all.
My only contact with the people taking me to court are through a Delaware LLC registered at a post office box in a mall, and an attorney in based in Hong Kong. The LLC does not pay its taxes or file any of it’s paperwork with the government. Basically its the most thinly veiled shell company ever.
Every few months they file some BS motion to drag out the legal process and then say that if I want them to stop I need to pay them money and that they will drop the case. Basically it’s extortion based on the fact that they know that the courts are backed up for years and even the most half baked legal challenge are very expensive to resolve.
The legal paperwork that they file links to Amazon.com/MakerMade as their website.
On principal I have no intention to ever pay anything to these people, perhaps you can relay that to them so that they understand that no matter how long they drag out the process they won’t make a dime.
You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make it drink. And it sounds like from what I’m understanding, the same fire that’s burning you has burned me too.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but you have never reached out to ask me for help. You’ve had my contact details for years and never once picked up the phone or attempted to have a meeting with me. Closed mouths don’t get fed.
My offers to help had always been made in public forums or YouTube comments, usually in response to your disparaging and defamatory remarks about MakerMade. The minimal email exchanges I had with you resulted in you turning around and making embarrassing videos (or comments) about us. I’ve really had no incentive to help you when this is how you want to do things. The most I can do is defend my reputation.
If you want help, tell me what you need help with. But if your “ask” is to communicate with these jokers in China, former colleagues and/or former MakerMade staff (all of whom were terminated, by the way)… those are the same fires that burned me. Happy to share experiences, happy to help with whatever you need (that I can reasonably do), but I’m certainly not happy with how we’ve been treated by you.
—t.j.
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From the outside it seems like what was MakerMade has fractured into a bunch of factions none of whom seem to like each-other and none of whom are telling the same story.
If you have the ability to make the faction which is currently trying to blackmail Maslow to stop doing that it would be very much appreciated if you would get them to stop.
So should we copy and post the GpLv3 in the Custom properties section? Add a trademark notice to the bottom of the readme and then make sure that other files have a reference if they have a different license? I’ll stop posting about it now as I have done what I can with it and I uderstand the intentions. I think the repo owner is the only one who can edit this:
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Software library is finished with the pull request from today. Please add or suggest things if you have more. As good as I can make it.
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Lets leave it as is. Since this repository has a bunch of different files from different sources with different licenses I don’t think that there is one global license which applies to everything. Each folder should have the appropriate information in it already.
Excellent! Great work, I will take a look and merge it ASAP!
Do I have the ability to stop them? No. I’ve spent well over $150k in legal fees on my fires.
Can I help you? Probably.
I don’t know exactly what you are facing or dealing with, other than what I need to say to defend MakerMade. But I’ve always said I’m happy to discuss (just not in public) and help where able.
There is no secret there is a long history of Maslow logo misuse created by Patrick – according to Adobe Illustrator authorship, the file metadata (and history of changes dating back to 2019), and our own evidence with attachment and metadata. This “AI template” (and the precursors to it) were used on MakerMade’s “Maslow” products and your Maslow logos date back to 2019. This post-dates the emails you publicly shared. The co-branded logos were everywhere, including on your website in the Community Garden and here and here and here and here. Happily plastered everywhere by Patrick and his “marketing team” (image from archive.org) and cleaned up by me.
When you first brought the issue to my attention (see ~October 2023 emails), I removed everything on the MakerMade website and all advertising I had control over at that time. Vendors or liquidators ran a few sales channels (Amazon, maybe a couple of others). In 2022/23, I was tied up in legal BS after the board terminated Patrick & Patrick’s numerous thefts of MakerMade’s IP and his own breaches of his fiduciary duties (this company being one of them, and I’m sure he stroked you hard about it). I was running MakerMade barely one day a week, and only to keep the brand/reputation alive. Towards the end of 2023, Amazon contacted us about a Maslow product logo on several products. We cited our own trademark infringement and demanded that Amazon remove the listing. All this communication is documented in writing with Amazon.
Effective January 1, 2024, the assets were legally transferred from the now-defunct Maker Made LLC to Makerhub LLC (my company) to partially offset the debt they owed me. After that transfer, we were approached by a Kinnamon cohort to purchase a swath of our own squatted trademarks and trade names. One or two of them included Maslow trademarks or tradenames. Again, I declined.
The only guy still standing behind the MakerMade brand is me. Patrick fcked a bunch of people and is playing the others like a fiddle. He’s been a two-faced operator for years. He manipulates his way through everything he touches and has nothing to show for himself. I can likely give you a dozen members in this forum that he’s screwed over (you can guess how he found them). He is the guy who will gaslight people with lies about MakerMade and BS to butter them up, only because in his mind, he thinks he’s hurting me/Chris/MakerMade.
Patrick was the original person behind your trademark mess, and I’ve been cleaning up his shit. And at the same time, he and Benson Garner are gaslighting you into whatever you want to believe from them. They’ve swindled $450,000 from me (before I took over the assets). In 2021, they fraudulently misrepresented MakerMade’s “decline” to the US Government to obtain a $200,000 COVID EIDL loan, and in 2022, they stole the R&D and misappropriated IP developed by MakerMade to their “new company” (Plus or Minus Inc aka True Creative). In 2023 they fired cofounders days before they were vested, didn’t pay them the $100k+ they owed them & failed to provide workers’ compensation for an injured employee. In 2024, they have swindled over $600,000 from “investors” … all in the attempt to create their failed, stolen CNC machine:
Aside from the above, there is an entire swath of information I can’t even discuss on public forums, but have every document to back up every claim I’ve made. I’m happy to help you, but you gotta tell me what you want and need (you have my email). I have been spending years cleaning up messes & recovering from losses. Makerhub/MakerMade is finally cash flow positive and in a very healthy growth position. I do not need any additional negativity and reputational damage now when things are looking bright.
Thanks,
–t.j.
If any doubt, here’s our entire Garden “Archive” circa 2019. I’ll let the metadata/EXIF data speak for itself.
GitHub archives will only show so much. We have 80GB of litigation discovery. This is a tiny sliver of the troves of damning evidence collected.
Bar,
As a follower / backer since the first Kickstarter, I’ve previously mentioned to you my hesitation to respond publicly to the defamatory statements made by @sourcery. This forum is meant to support the incredible work you and others are doing with the Maslow project, not air personal grievances. To that end, I’ll simply say-
- Post-my termination, TJ onboarded and/or sold to the individuals currently causing the Maslow TM headache. Knowing that, an unwillingness to proactively help (rather than wait for an ask) is telling.
- As you know, any use of the Maslow name while I was CEO at MM was done only with your pre-approval, with revisions grounded in your requirements. I suppose his goal here was an attempt to loosely implicate me in the current legal dispute.
- The numerous other vague assertions (“two-faced,” “gaslighting”) are not worth responding to, other than to say they’ve been catalogued among the countless other defamatory assertions through these 3+ years.
To Bar, WouldChuck, the community, I truly am sorry that this mess exists at all.
To TJ, you’ve said your peace ad nauseum - publicly, for some reason - making your ongoing grievances clear as day…for over 3 years now. If you actually want to demonstrate your support to Maslow like you say, I’d recommend a) not airing your laundry on the forum and b) talking to the people whom you personally onboarded and who are now actively trying to steal a trademark from the clear, rightful owner.
Sans Bar asking for a specific response, this will be my last public note on this subject. If anyone would like to discuss further, please feel free to email me at pkinnamon@gmail.com.
Thanks,
Patrick